Coun. Chris Mayne, affectionately nicknamed the Amazing Green Horn by yours truly, has agreed to a little blog debate beginning this afternoon.
The subject is his tried-and-so-far-failed attempt to convince his fellow North Bay councillors to ban plastic water bottles from municipal facilities. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities has since jumped on a similar bandwagon, and so have a few notable union leaders, such as Sid Ryan, and Maude Barlow of Council of Canadians fame.
They want everyone to stock up on reusable stainless steel canteens, saying the plastic bottles are unnecessarily filling up landfills, the production of them is killing the planet and municipal tap water is just as good or better.
I’m taking the position that bottled water is a safer, more convenient option that should not be banned from public places. Arenas and other municipal facilities should be allowed to stock bottled water because drinking fountains are either not maintained to ensure cleanliness or they are out of order. Bathrooms are not exactly prestine locations to get drinking water, either.
I support the promotion of reusable water canteens, but I don’t like the idea of banning what has proven to be a reliable source of refreshment. It sure beats buying pop or sugar-filled juice beverages when you forget to bring the stainless steel or other type of containers.
There’s plenty of other issues to talk about.
But I’ll keep some of my powder dry for rebuttal.
The stage is all yours, Coun. Mayne.
hi Dave! … appreciate the opportunity to post a few comments that I think are timely following Maude Barlow’s presentation in town last week and that it has been about 9 months since Council agreed to review our bottled water usage at City Hall and hopefully may yet consider an outright ban of the sale of bottled water at Municipal facilities, but as you allude to, the basic question for many people is “why bother?”
By simply using a refillable water bottle we can reduce our use of disposable plastics and the petrochemicals used in their production and shipping, and at the same time make better use of locally provided product – tap water – that as taxpayers we make significant investments in to provide around the City, not to mention reducing potential litter aswell.
MUNICIPAL WATER IS SAFER, tap water is provided fresh every day straight from your tap, is tested and monitored continuously for impurities, and hasn’t spent an some unknown amount of time sitting in a plastic bottle, enjoying the ride up from Guelph, absorbing chemicals that your body would probably be better off without.
CONVENIENT, tap water that your tax dollars pay for should be every bit as convenient and accessible as this is a service that any City should provide. Unfortunately some communities and institutions find it easier (read less expensive) to provide an electrical outlet for a cooler than plumbing for water fountain or pay a few dollars more for an extended faucet that more easily accommodates water bottles.
IMPROVED MAINTENANCE, Pleased to say that North Bay is looking at upgrading and adding to the water fountains at our municipal facilities especially at sports arenas and the waterfront.
THAT BOTTLED WATER NOT BE SOLD AT MUNICIPAL FACILITIES, if tap water is readily available and accessible for either those with refillable water bottles or paper cups at the canteen counters, then patrons at the sports facilities would not have to pay a dollar for a product their own tax dollars are already providing. If one of the goals of the City of North Bay is to reduce the waste we produce (we have tried recycling at the arenas, but most of the containers still end up in the garbage) then limiting the sale of plastic containers, especially for a product we already produce like municipal tap water, is a small but significant step to take.
Pepsi and Coca Cola are loving this campaign.
You’re removing their biggest competition from prime market territory and replacing it with access to a tap . . . if the always friendly counter person has two seconds to spare between orders of fries and slushies.
This would be fine if visitors here knew how well North Bay city water tastes compared to the water pumped out by their cities, but they probably don’t.
So far, a water bottle ban removes choice and, in return, we’re being told to buy, transport and clean other vessels because recycling containers are arenas are not doing the trick.
Meanwhile, the garbage cans will be filled with Gatorade and pop bottles, and not much else will have changed.
And exactly how much will it cost to upgrade or install water fountains, plus the maintenance costs and public health inspections?
hi Dave! …. Pepsi (Aquafina) and Coke (Dasani), who both sell bottled water from publicly filtered locations, and their soft drink empires, should both be more than a little uncomfortable with the present situation. If plastic water bottlers have lost about 20% business in the last year as people resist water in plastic bottles, it will only be a short matter of time before they resist high sugar soft drinks in plastic bottles aswell.
North Bay has great tap water and with our new $45 million water filtration plant will have even better tap water – so why not promote it. The “North Bay Re-Usable Water Bottle Poster” that is now being distributed around town was supported by over 20 local groups who also think we have great water and should use it. Tim Horton’s this past weekend hosted their first “plastic water bottle free” Community Clean Up Day, and the City has now been approached by a large volunteer group of more than two thousand people, who would also like to host a plastic-water-bottle-free event this summer.
Worth mentioning, the more we use and promote our own excellent product, the more likely we are to respect the importance of our water supply, to think twice about over fertilizing the grass if you live near the lake, monitoring your septic tank or even driving a transport truck too quickly beside Delaney Bay as all we need is one overturned load of chemicals to close the Lake and our only drinking water source … but I digress.
A ban is a concern to many people but like buckling up seat belts and not smoking in public, if it is something that is no longer appropriate to do, then the City of North Bay has the opportunity of leading this as an issue rather than waiting for other communities to act first.
This isn’t the end of a campaign to reduce the use of disposable plastics and waste, or the only answer, but it is the beginning of a change in consumer attitudes that can be an important part of our legacy for the future.
Yes, my kids will love drinking Pepsi and Coca Cola rather than the healthier choice of water (now you can dispose of their bottles instead! Oh, wait we do and people are not campaining against that though.).
Since I don’t think that legislating “Bottle” morality is the best way to proceed, maybe we have to give people an easy more responsible alternative. I propose two things: Easy and public and home access. First put in the faucets convenient places where they can fill their bottles as well as put a water tap with chilled water in cafeterias and coffee rooms for people to fill up.
It is easy to point the finger and say “you shall not” but much harder to come up with intelligent solutions.
My second solution I propose is that the City search out a supplier of water filtration units that can be connected up at home to a municipal water source (house tap) to generate a continual reservoir of purified water (osmotic filtration is one possibility) for our homes. Then we could fill up our bottle with unchlorinated water for pennies. In a similar vein for people that don’t want to buy a filter, at the new water treatment plant have a filtered (not just tap water) 24/7 water outlet for people to drive in in fill up their large water bottles. Use the money saved from hiring a person at the recyle depot and landfill site who deals with the bottles to sell us water purifiers and run the water outlet. I have checked around town and only poorer solutions like Brita filters are available and not quality purifiers.
I suggest leading the charge to a healthier environment (great water, great access) rather than trying to legislate people to choose pop or city water (I live outside the city and don’t like the chlorinated smell of your water: I hear my kidneys don’t care to filter it our either!).
So the new North Bay slogan “Great Water, Great Access”. Let’s be leaders and not show a willingness to underperform.
Chris, you have raised some interesting points.
But if that truck or rail tanker does tip over and land in Delaney Bay, where will we get the emergency bottled water?
It was emergency preparedness week recently and I was urged to have enough water on hand for 72 hours for all my family’s cooking, drinking and washing needs.
A case or two of bottled water would come in handy, but municipal bans may put small Ontario spring water bottlers like Nestle near Guelph out of business. I’d have to buy the more expensive corporate water drawn from Mississauga city taps.
Does it really have to be a municipal ban? That’s my primary concern. I would think, like any social engineering exercise, the goal is to change people’s outlooks and perspectives.
Use bottled water as little as possible, recycle plastic when you do and here’s a reusable canteen to help make it easier.
For example, I rinsed out a couple old water bottles from Dylan’s hockey bag and filled them up last night before the minor baseball evaluation camp. But it was because I’m too cheap to buy him Gatorade.
Speaking of the so-called eco-friendly canteens. Who is making these stainless steel vessels and what kind of carbon footprint do they make?
for those who are concerned about chlorine in municipal water, this is from a long-experienced water scientist: if you fill an open jug with tap water and let it sit for 1 hr, the chlorine gasses off. Voila!
And for emergency water, buy a couple of those cheap, semi-clear plastic 5-gal water jugs where camping supplies are sold and fill them with tap water. Change the water once a month. Much cheaper in the long run than buying bottled water.
Regarding freedom of choice, what about the choice to choose free, more highly monitored city water? If public water fountains aren’t offered, there is no choice but bottled water. And fewer and fewer places seem to have water fountains.
for those who are concerned about chlorine in municipal water, this is from a long-experienced water scientist: if you fill an open jug with tap water and let it sit for 1 hr, the chlorine gasses off. Voila!
And for emergency water, buy a couple of those cheap, semi-clear plastic 5-gal water jugs where camping supplies are sold and fill them with tap water. Change the water once a month. Much cheaper in the long run than buying bottled water.
Regarding freedom of choice, what about the choice to choose free, more highly monitored city water? If public water fountains aren’t offered, there is no choice but bottled water. And fewer and fewer places seem to have water fountains.
Bottled water is a billion-dollar industry and a billion-dollar boondoggle. Would you rather drink water pumped in North Bay, or from the ground in Guelph, Ontario? Plastic bottles are made from petroleum and are not biodegradable. They are recyclable, but at what cost in terms of energy consumption and the addition of greenhouse gas emissions in the process?
I say, turn on a tap in North Bay and enjoy the benefits of living in the north. Southern Ontario people envy us for our cold, fresh water. Convenience is laziness, in my opinion, when it comes to bottled water. Ban it, or tax it to pay for municipal upgrades to the water and sewer system, and to pay for the Blue Box program. Consumption taxes tend to make people think about what they are buying, if you can’t convince them of the environmental benefits.
… charging a refundable deposit to ensure return of the plastics and recovering the full cost of garbage collection and recycling by taxing it on all plastic bottles would also remind everyone of the true cost of consuming the product – this is being proposed by the Province of Ontario ( in regard everything from plastic bottles to television sets) and hopefully will come forward sooner than later. Meantime there are still a number of things that we can and should do at the community level.
To “fresh acorn” and “Geezer”, thanks for some good points you raised.
Chris very generously dropped off one of those metal reusable canteens with a half-maple leaf logo on it, wrapped with a poster promoting various other so-called acts of green.
It’s the cheapest of the cheap sort of bottle, not even stainless steel I think, cause that’s how promotional items tend to go. On the bottom is a big Made in China stamp.
The thing stinks of some kinda chemical, just like the other ones that appear better made.
There’s no way I’m going to drink out of it. Everything that comes back from China seems to be tainted with toxins. China is degrading the Earth at a faster pace than any country.
And freshacorn advises me to buy a cheap, semi-clear plastic 5-gallon water jug? Is it recyclable? Does it have a carbon footprint? Who cares, anything to make a statement.
I actually have one of those thick blue plastic 5-gallon jugs in the shed. It’s been there for four years or so. I’ll have to drag it out and disinfect it with a blast of city water before filling it up with Corbeil well water, and then pour it out every month (maybe water the dandelions).
Convenience? Laziness? Guilty as charged.
I don’t know why, but I trust those darn plastic water bottles to be safer than the hit and miss of public fountains, counter stations, bathrooms, etc.
The funny thing about this issue is that I hate plastic, always have. When the bottled water fad came into play full force about 10 years ago, I cringed every time I saw someone popping off one of those caps. I’m surprised kids haven’t died from choking on them.
And then I got into the recycle rant, and I’ve been bugging people in my home, at family functions across Ontario and various workplaces to not be so lazy and find a blue box.
Seriously, I probably piss a lot of people off when I point out their evil ways as they toss cans and bottles into the trash like it was their right to be wasteful.
I like Geezer’s idea of taxing the darn things to death, although I hardly trust the government to put the money to the proper use.
Most of all, just like Chris’ anti-plastic bottle crusaders, I hope the debate leads to people making a choice to use less, reuse things when possible and recycle more.
But bans on water bottles are not the way to go, as far as I’m concerned.
POSTED FOR:
Christine Charette says:
May 12th, 2009 at 11:00 am
The BIG POINT is being missed here. The ban is on the ONE TIME USE ONLY water bottles. THESE ARE THE MAJOR PROBLEMS!
1 .they are made of OIL and this is not an infinite resource.
2. they are a major WASTE and POLLUTANT, ending up in our lakes, rivers, parks and ditches, not to mention the landfill.
3. the companies that are bottling water (i.e Coke) are DEPLETING aquafirs all around the world, leading to drout and water shortage in many LDC countries.
4.Bottling companies are only a FEW JOBS created in the big picture, which is choosing the hard path, where as we could be taking the soft path and creating many more green jobs to help SUSTAIN our environment-(without a planet to live on, jobs start looking a little useless don’t they!)
5. People that are writing about critical environmental situations should be educating themselves about the environment, starting with a chat with our Environment Minister Gord Miller, who happens to live here in North Bay…(and Dave Dale-he could teach you a few things that would perhaps make you eat your words-rather than fighting for fighting sake-maybe you could breathe a bit, and start looking at the REAL picture your kids are facing in the future-as a parent you should be concerned-it’s okay to drop your gloves and start making peace, and working together on this-yes we all have a right to an opinion-but we don’t have the right to go on damaging our planet-there is a need to take action here).
Another point I would like to make, is HOW THE HECK DID WE SURVIVE 10 TO 20 YEARS AGO without convenient water bottles??? Boy we must have been dying of thirst every time we were out of the house! Well, one thing for sure, is that there were many more public drinking fountains around, which there is need for a revival-especially in parks and ‘green spaces’ where young children play, parents and elderly sit and rest and enjoy life. (and the argument of $ just isn’t an argument anymore-you spend on quality, so that it lasts…we should all know that by now-it’s WORTH IT!) Being a parent, I have always spent ‘a little more’ on quality goods, for the sake of the health of my daughters and the health of the planet-and I am far from being wealthy (money wise that is)-I just cut out other spending to make it work. In my family there are 5 kids and growing up, we didn’t go on any road trip or outing without a cooler and thermos’s full of drinks-and canteens when camping-it’s just the way the 70’s were! We all made it to here, and we didn’t have plastic water bottles-and there is juice and ice tea in glass bottles, that have always been my alternate choice to my own refillable water bottle. There isn’t just pop-I’ve never had to resort to pop in my life-it’s a CHOICE we make. It’s also about BEING PREPARED, just like thinking of bringing a bag with you when you leave your house, you bring your bottle-a new mentality is needed for our next evolutionary step, if we want to make it through any more. It isn’t that difficult. People remember their keys, their sunglasses, their sunscreen (which by the way was a NEW addition to our bags not too long ago) –and now you also bring your water bottle. And when at home, in case of emergency, (as Acorn already mentioned) you fill up your own large water bottles to have in case of emergency, and see it as not always drinking from plastic. I personally have purchased (second hand) large glass bottles for wine making, that are filled for emergencies. There are solutions!! You just have to care enough-and act on them. I have two daughters, and my mama bear instinct is to protect and to provide. Water is obviously a serious concern, as well as waste. Both are mindful issues that we cannot ignore-our lives depend on it! [watch FLOW, For the Love of Water-it’s at Blockbuster right now-We’re in a Global crisis - It’s real and it’s NOW!]
I see this debate as a positive thing. We may bicker about the road to take, but most people are aiming to promote the availability and consumption of “pure, clear water”. Some really good ideas are coming forward, though they made need fine tuning. Don’t forget that the global picture of the water issue shows some scary things happening as life-giving water is becoming just another consumer product for which people must pay the corporations.
We, who are blessed with great tap water, must protect the right of everyone to its availability not only for our own children’s future but for the desperately poor in other places.
Volunteering for the spring cleanup along rural roads for our church group, we collected piles of plastic drink bottles, many of them half used, thoughtlessly tossed from passing vehicles. Please keep us thinking and debating how we can resolve our disagreements and work together for a world where water, air, and soils are valued and once again nurture human life.
Basically, we agree on the central point. Plastic is evil.
But the question remains . . . are municipal water bottle bans the best and brightest idea?
We’d save the planet faster if we banned plastic toys, playground equipment, furniture and rubber running shoes.
Why allow plastic pop bottles to be sold in public facilities or workplaces?
I asked Dr. Catherine Whiting last year about the proposed ban. She said the city will need them for emergencies, such as water events, heat waves, etc.
Other health units in Ontario have warned cities to make sure they have enough fountains in place so people are not tempted to buy high calorie, acidic products, which are a health hazard.
As for the Made in China steel canteen fad, nobody seems to have a response about its impact.
I wonder why?
i’ve always hated bottled water, thought it was an incredible waste of money to pay a buck or 2 for stuff that’s (practically) free from the tap. however, when i go out, travel, that sort of thing, without bottled water the next best choice is pepsi or coke. no store is going to willingly give their potential customers free tap water, same for fast food places…go to a real restaurant and have just water and you look like el cheapo. so when you’re out, and you’re going to drink something, the healthiest choice on the menu is usually bottled water. it’s not ‘convenience’ here, it’s business…they want to sell something, but as we’ve become more health conscious we have to choose between a soft drink or calorie free water.
How about Alexander Keith’s on tap?
isn’t the real question here recycling? the complaints i’ve heard all stem from the bottles ending up in the landfill(or the side of the road). now, of course it’s better to reuse a steel bottle over and over instead (come to think of it, how much water will it take to wash that bottle every time, and what kinds of germs will the drinker be exposed to if it’s not properly cleaned?) it’s not as convenient, and that’s the part you have to sell. go back to the good old days, with returnable bottles, and there was a lot less ont time usage i’m sure. are more wine and booze bottles being saved from the landfill now, with a deposit in place? i’d bet on it. so if you want more plastic bottles recycled, put a price on them.
I will start drinking tap water when it stops tasting like chorine and javex.
And I will feed it to my animals when the water stops leaving an orange gel at the bottom of their bowls……….after twenty four hours.
Maybe I should try Alexander Keith’s.
Here’s a comment that got set aside for moderation because it had a website reference, which offends our finicky little blog program . . ..
matheson
I would like to weigh in on this issue.
I am a journalism student studying at St. Lawrence College in Cornwall, Ontario.
Recently, with the help of The St. Lawrence River Institute, I tested all drinking water from my college’s campus for an investigative report I wrote. (This included water samples from drinking fountains, as well as samples from all types of bottled water sold on campus.) We tested the samples for turbidity, pH levels, chlorine residuals, and e.coli. I won’t get into detail, but I was surprised to see that all levels, bottled and municipal, did not vary from one another in any significant way, according to provincial regulations. Beyond my own little study, there are piles of evidence already supporting my claim that bottled water offers no greater health benefits in terms of water quality.
Please research this on your own, it is quite interesting and informative.
With the evidence in mind, I must urge Dave Dale to rethink his position that bottled water is safer than municipal supplies.
That position has been disproved by many reputable scientists, governmental, and non-governmental organizations.
I also want to address the many other concerns that surround the bottled water industry.
1- Health Canada oversees bottled water regulation. (Division 12 of the Food and Drug Regulations) One potential problem is that there is no license or permit required to begin bottling and selling water. Once it hits the market, however, its bottling facilities are subject to inspection by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency.
ONE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THE FACTS ABOVE:
Between April 1, 2008 March 2009, the CFIA inspected only 16 of the 282 bottled water plants in Canada. That means that only 6% of ALL bottling plants were inspected. To me, that is astonishingly negligent.
Another point of concern, besides vast amounts of wasted landfill space, are the possible effects that bottling can have on water sources.
Personally, I support a ban on the SALE of bottled in municipal facilities. The federal government has been dragging its shoes on bottled water regulation for too long, and perhaps the only way to get them working is to receive pressure from the private sector. Because these companies have been given a somewhat ‘easy ride’ in the past, it is unlikely that they will push for stricter regulations without the threat of municipal bans on the sale of their products.
I agree with Dave Dale when he says he is not keen on publicly banning things, but a sometimes a line has to be drawn. I don’t think anyone should be fined or reprimanded for being in possession of bottled water on municipal properties, but I do not think that they should be offered on-site when free water of equal quality is readily available. I do agree that it is a good idea to have bottled water on-hand for emergencies, but that really does not enter into this, as I do not believe in an outright ban on bottled water. I just think that sometimes the government must act in the best interest of the people. And, at times, people as a whole don’t necessarily have a clue what their collective best interests are.
Science has shown us that if municipal water is of equal value health-wise, we are fools to pay money for something that offers no greater health benefits.
Think about this…….How many times do you hear people complaining about gasoline prices? Now, how many times do you hear complaints about the price of bottled water?
More times than not, you are paying more for bottled water than you would an equal amount of gasoline.
Convenience? Maybe. But, personally, my reply to the idea of bottled water being convenient is this: (not directed at anyone specifically)
“Suck it up. Get off your butt. Refill a reusable bottle. You’re not THAT busy.”
Again, I urge everyone who reads this post to do their own digging, and don’t believe what I’ve written until you research it for yourself.